A comprehensive conversation with HaGaon HaRav Yitzchok Sorotzkin Shlita

Introduction:

Derech halimud is a topic that provokes much thought and debate among bnei Yeshiva. How fast, how slow, how to balance iyun and bekius, how much time to devote to each...

HaGaon HaRav Yitzchok Sorotzkin, shlita, Rosh Yeshiva of the Mesivta of Lakewood and Telshe, has been delivering shiurim to bochurim for more than a half century. He has also written his magnum opus, Gevuras Yitzchok on Shas and Sefer Rinas Yitzchok Tanach.

Rav Yitzchok received the mesorah from the previous generation of great European roshei yeshiva and serves as a transmitter of that hallowed mesorah to our generation. We had the zechus of sitting down with him for a comprehensive conversation on this vital topic.

What is the right balance for a ben Torah to divide his time between learning iyun and bekius?

Rav Yitzchok Sorotzkin: Before we discuss this very important topic in general terms, I think it is important to understand that no yeshiva is exactly alike. Each yeshiva functions in its own unique way and the roshei yeshiva and hanhala of each yeshiva knows and understands what is best for its talmidim. In addition, very often a yeshiva caters to a certain type of bochur. Therefore, there cannot be an ironclad rule when it comes to learning iyun and bekius. It is possible that what is good for one yeshiva or one type of bochur is not good for another. Rav Shach, zt”l, writes that that not all bochurim are alike and each bachur needs to learn according to his own inclination, as long as they don’t spend too long on one line.

Thus, it is important to stress that although there are general ground rules on this topic, they cannot always be universally applied. Each mossad and each rosh yeshiva has to make the final determination as to which exact balance is appropriate for his talmidim.

What then is the general rule? For example, virtually everyone agrees that morning seder is dedicated to learning b’iyun. What about second seder or night seder?

Again, with the introduction that there is no ironclad rule, we can relate what Rav Elchonon Wasserman zt”l, said. Rav Elchonon explained that he had a kabbalah from the Chofetz Chaim zt”l, who heard directly from Rav Yisroel Salanter zt”l that there is a chiyuv of yedias haTorah. That means that aside from the chiyuv of havanas haTorah there is a chiyuv of yedias haTorah. He said that these two chiyuvim should be split into the two main sedarim of the day, one seder dedicated to havanas haTorah, what we call iyun and one seder for yedias haTorah, what we call bekius. This was the model established in the Olam HaTorah, one seder for each.  Parenthetically, I must say that Rav Shach did not like the term “bekius.” He felt that the connotation was just learning many dafim without really understanding. Perhaps he would have termed it, “iyun kal.”

So, the Rosh Yeshiva is saying that morning seder should be iyun and second seder bekius?

When I was a bochur, that was the way we learned. The European roshei yeshiva who came to America and Eretz Yisroel brought this mesorah with them.

During my first tekufah in Yeshiva gedolah, we learned one blatt every day during second seder! Not only did we learn a new blatt every day, but during that time we also chazered the previous day’s blatt. At the end of the week (on Friday and Shabbos) we chazered everything that we had learned that week. At the end of each perek we chazered again and at the end of the zeman we chazered everything we learned throughout the zeman. The roshei yeshiva held that we needed a minimum of four chazaros. In this way, we learned five blatt every week and chazered each one at least four times.

In truth, during morning seder we also learned much more than what is learned today. For example, during morning seder throughout a winter zeman we covered from the beginning of Bava Metziah until the end of Perek Hamfkid (more than 40 blatt)!

Is that the pace that should be learned today during morning seder?

No. Even forty years ago when I became a maggid shiur, the roshei yeshiva realized that they could not demand so much. They told me that I should cover two and a half blatt per week… and even that amount I was not able to cover in a week. As time went on, they allowed me to lower the amount to one and a half blatt per week.

What is the reason why things changed?

One of the primary reasons is that we have so many seforim and they had almost no seforim. So, let’s say, you are learning Rav Akiva Eiger, you might notice that the only rishonim he mentions are the Ran and Rosh that were printed in the back of the Shas. He simply didn’t have access to other rishonim. In the yeshivas in Europe as well, they had almost no seforim.

Rav Gifter zt”l, would say that in Telshe, a yeshiva with nearly 500 bochurim, there was only one Rashba and you had to wait your turn to look in the Rashba. Rav Shach would say that one of the reasons people are learning slower and slower is not only because of the many achronim that we have but also because of the rishonim. In Europe, if you learned the Rashba or the Ramban that was considered a lot. Today, every bochur’l has an entire Kovetz Meforshim containing all the rishonim and many achronim. This can slow people down tremendously.

In addition, today most bachurim hear a daily shiur and spend time reviewing the shiur. Thus, there is less time to acquire yedios.

Rav Chaim Brisker zt”l, and Rav Elchonon (Wasserman) would generally say shiur on approximately one blatt per day. Looking at Rav Elchonon’s shiurim you can say that he generally said just a bit on every daf. It wasn’t like it is today.

Similarly, even later, if you look at the shiurim of Rav Shmuel Rozovsky, zt”l, you see how in the early machzorim he was able to say shiurim on many more blatt. Then, as the years progressed, he covered less and less ground. I think the reason is because as time went on the rishonim and other seforim became much more available, thus, the bochurim got bogged down more.

The same transpired in Lakewood by Rav Aharon zt”l (Kotler). Every machzor they covered less.

Rav Moshe Shmuel Shapiro, zt”l, Rosh Yeshiva of Be’er Yaakov once gave a different reason for the change in pace. He said that in the past almost no one had the luxury to learn in kollel. Once they married, they had to find a source of parnossah and were not able to learn all day. Today, however, boruch Hashem, kollel is a fact of life. In the past, they had to learn quicker because otherwise they would never be able to achieve yedias haTorah. Once they had the yoke of parnossah, it was nearly impossible. Today, however, a bochur can learn slowly because when he is a yungerman he will be able to pick up speed and achieve yedias haTorah.

The Rosh Yeshiva has been referring to morning seder. What about second seder? What should the balance be today?

Let me quote you what Rav Aharon says in Mishnah Rav Aharon (volume 3). He says, “The yetzer hara makes a person learn the wrong way. He causes him to be ‘medayek’ more than is necessary. There are two negative byproducts. Firstly, he learns very little, even though he has a chiyuv to know the entire Torah. Secondly, if a person learns this way, he also loses whatever he learned. He relies on his own sechel and is missing yedios and therefore, even what he does learn is incorrect. When we are relying on our own sechel as opposed to the sechel haTorah that we only get from learning a lot of Torah, we will make mistakes. The Gemara says that divrei Torah are ‘poor’ in some places and ‘rich’ in others. In other words, if you don’t have wide ranging yedios it is not possible that what you are learning in seder iyun is going to be correct. You are simply missing the yedios needed to know if a chiddush that you are saying has truth to it and if it is consonance with other sugyos in the masechta. Rav Chaim Brisker would say that it is important to have wide ranging knowledge, because a person that says a chiddush without having yedios all over, has no idea if his chiddush contradicts a gemara somewhere else.

So second seder should be utilized to enrich yedios?

Yes, I think in yeshiva ketanos (high school age yeshivos), many are learning the correct way. Many mesivtos are learning two blatt during second seder and some even more. Many give tests that encourage the bochurim to chazer, really locking in their yedios.

This is not usually the case in yeshiva gedolos. Many yeshivos learn the limud of second seder with the same iyun (and sometimes more) than they do in the morning, thus they only cover a few blatt every zman. Even if you justify this with Rav Moshe Shmuel’s klal that we can wait for after marriage to enrich their yedios, we see that if a person learns this way as a bochur he will not find a geshmak in learning a few blatt a week when he is a yungerman. He will nebach spend his life kvetching on a few blatt each zman. I remember Rav Mordechai Gifter, zt”l, bemoaning this, saying, “They are learning a lot about nothing.”

Rav Shach writes that in second seder one daf should be learned daily. In a footnote at the bottom of that shmuess, he writes, at a minimum, three blatt should be learned every week. If a bochur would learn three or even two and a half blatt every week (an amud per day) and chazer a few times, he would find tremendous satisfaction.

One thing seems to clear: the Rosh Yeshiva is saying that learning b’iyun the entire day is not the right derech.

I am not saying that. Rav Aharon Kotler is saying that! Rav Shach is saying that! The Brisker Rav is saying that! It is clear that in most cases, second seder should be devoted to what we call iyun kal learning, covering ground and many chazaros. That is how one achieves yedias haTorah. Of course, each rosh yeshiva knows what his talmidim need, but I am talking in general terms.

Previously, the Rosh Yeshiva said that it is wonderful that many yeshiva ketanos cover ground during second seder and have tests to strengthen their yedios. What does the Rosh Yeshiva hold about tests?

Rav Shach would say that chazara does not only apply to what you are learning that year. He says, that bnei Torah should constantly review masechtos that they have learned in previous years. That, he says, is the main chazara. When a bochur chazers the four or five masechtos he learned in mesivta and continues chazering even in yeshiva gedolah, whether during bein hasedorim or other free time, he acquires that masechta.

Does the Rosh Yeshiva consider it below the dignity of a bochur or a yungerman to be tested on what he learns?

Once it was considered below the dignity of a bochur or a yungerman, but in our times this has changed. We see how bochurim and yungeleit take tests and are paid for good results. We see how tests empower a person to learn and retain in a way that they would not have done as well without the mechayev of a test. I do, therefore, think that it is not considered a lack of kavod to give a test in today’s world.

In addition, we find that gedolei olam would prepare to be tested. I remember hearing about a talmid of Rav Raphael of Volozhin zt”l who asked Rav Raphael to test him because he must prepare for his “big farher” after 120 years. Even closer to our time, Rav Avigdor Miller zt”l was seen constantly chazering and would say, “I am preparing for the ‘big test’ after 120.”

One last question. Bekius or better put, iyun kal, is that Gemara, Rashi with Tosafos, or just Gemara with Rashi?

Rav Shach writes that there is not clear klal when it comes to this. There are bochurim who can get stuck on a Tosafos that is not relevant to the sugya. Tosafos often brings questions from other places in Shas, and this can hold up a bochur. One doesn’t have to learn every Tosafos. This is dependent on each bochur and his level of learning. One has to use one’s own sechel to know when a Tosafos will unnecessarily delay a person and when it won’t.